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Re: Newsweek SPANKS Oprah!
Mon, June 8, 2009 - 4:52 PMYeah but considering Newsweek is just as bad as Oprah about promoting pseudoscience, it's all a bit weak really. It's interesting to watch Oprah - a black woman - being singled out and demonized when she's only one of many. It's almost like Newsweek wants to make a scene so no one notices they do exactly the same thing. Another thing worth noting, Big Pharma and some doctors/institutions actually laid the ground for "bio-identical" hormones by pushing HRT and contextualizing menopause as a "disease" to be medically "cured" or prevented. I'm pretty skeptical of Newsweek's slippery "ethics" personally - it's still not actually speaking the whole truth and nothing but the truth, and obviously it's also a way to sell magazines. -
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Re: Newsweek SPANKS Oprah!
Mon, June 8, 2009 - 5:08 PMShe is not alone, typically if you have the money -- you tend to try stuff like this and on this level? -
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Re: Newsweek SPANKS Oprah!
Tue, June 9, 2009 - 6:42 AMFrozen - Very true and a faith in god seems to predispose people to believing in this kind of thing (whether we're talking religious fundamentalists or new age believers). It's not like anyone's calling Oprah on her promotion of other more orthodox religious (and non-scientific) ideas or addressing the general social and political climate that supported the growth of these industries (and the role for-profit medicine in the US has had in mainstreaming woo). It's a matter of beheading the tall poppy while ignoring the rest of the field! -
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Re: Newsweek SPANKS Oprah!
Tue, June 9, 2009 - 10:43 AMI understand that argument, but she really is a loud voice for woo and she pretends to present it in a fair and balanced manner when it is nothing of the sort. They make the case that if Oprah endorses something it is guaranteed to be HUGE, and I worked at Barnes and Nobles for a while and I can absolutely attest that books would sell out in huge numbers just for making it to her list (we even had a special section for Oprah's bookclub). So to say that she is merely the tallest of the group is ignoring the enormous amount of influence she wields. She has far more influence on millions of peoples' health care choices than any doctor. Some reality on the subject of her rampant promotion of pseudo-science is sorely needed, and it's only getting worse as she is starting up her cable network for health and well being and giving Jenny McCarthy her own show! (a new era of McCarthyism needs to be ushered in... :P ) -
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Re: Newsweek SPANKS Oprah!
Tue, June 9, 2009 - 11:31 AMjeremy - It's her influence that makes her a tall poppy! If she had no influence, she wouldn't be "tall" or stand out. The NYTs, Newsweek and all kinds of publications that have waaaaaay more credibility (or claim to) than a daytime talk show host (even if they're less popular and influential, they present as more "serious" and "fair/ethical") also promote quackery. The fact that Newsweek is "spanking" Oprah for shit they do is just lame and about trying to use Oprah's celebrity and attacking her to up their readership. There are certainly some pro-science bloggers out there who also use her to pump up their own visibility and seem to have a rather disproportionate and envy driven reaction to her. Whatever, I just think it's pretty weak not to acknowledge that a lot of the pseudoscience that makes it onto Oprah does so because the medical profession is promoting it or legitimized it by selling pseudomagic bullets/pills in the first place! (HRT would be a prime example of this, and since medicine is a for-profit endeavor in the US this isn't going to change until the profit motive disappears. Medicine in the US needs to clean up it's own house before claiming someone else is messing it up and deserves to be burned at the stake!) -
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Re: Newsweek SPANKS Oprah!
Tue, June 9, 2009 - 12:09 PMyour point is well taken, I have to admit I don't really read a lot of publications like newsweek or NYT, probably for the very reason that they don't sound much like real journalism any longer, though I know The Huffington Post is a pretty egregious example of the promotion of psuedo-science. So maybe I should say the authors are spanking her and leave the publication to its own nefarious devices.
"I just think it's pretty weak not to acknowledge that a lot of the pseudoscience that makes it onto Oprah does so because the medical profession is promoting it or legitimized it by selling pseudomagic bullets/pills in the first place!"
I know how you think (i think) and I'm not sure I get your meaning here, its sounds like you're accusing the medical profession of something that falls more on the shoulders' of individual doctors? Are we talking all medical professionals or an organization like the FTA or FDA that needs to get more proactive? I would say in the face of how much money vitamins, supplements and general woo generates, that medical science and doctors who are truly in the medical profession are pretty reserved in their involvement. I tend to see others as outside the medical profession and of course some legit PhDs are going to get sucked in by the allure of money, the FDA absolutely needs to crack down on them.
I believe we agree on this subject, I just don't think I'm getting where you're coming from (beyond the news publications, absolutely great point).
I was merely saying that these authors should go after Oprah as she perpetuates the pollination of the poppy field and supports it's growth, therefore she's a worthy target (regardless of the magazines motives). ;) -
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Re: Newsweek SPANKS Oprah!
Tue, June 9, 2009 - 12:47 PMjeremy - An example that was played out on Oprah...HRT was a very mainstream medical practice and not initially promoted by individual doctors. (I'm not necessarily against HRT but I do recognize that it is partly a result of medicalizing menopause as a "disease" and only later discovering that HRT is actually dangerous for some women so when Oprah spreads the idea that women need to take "bio-identical" hormones - that are meant to be "safer" than medical HRT - she's actually doing it from a platform that was first constructed by medicine in terms of menopause being a disease that needs to be fixed and medical HRT being dangerous.)
Anyway, I'm coming from the perspective that there's some house cleaning and taking of responsibility to be done in academic medicine as well. And that it's a bit like the pot calling the kettle black for Newsweek to be mounting themselves on a high horse when it comes to Oprah and woo. Oprah really isn't the cause, she's more of a symptom in many ways. Medicine in the US is very compromised by it being a for-profit system run mainly by corporate interests. -
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Re: Newsweek SPANKS Oprah!
Tue, June 9, 2009 - 3:01 PM"Medicine in the US is very compromised by it being a for-profit system run mainly by corporate interests."
Exactly, and the phenomenon that's kind of insidious is the conflation, by woo types, of the corporate distortion of medical science (or the military-industrial distortions of academic research agendas, to pick a similar process), on the one hand, with the work generally done by scientists in all sorts of fields, on the other hand, scientists who for the most part are decent, honest, ethical and cautious people.
New Agers in particular seize upon the sometimes egregious practices of Big Pharma or military research and presume that all of science is similarly untrustworthy. (And one should be careful to note that there is still decent and ethical work being done even within pharmacos and government and military contractors - I know a virologist who left a university research job to work for DARPA on outbreak responses, more than ten years ago; I saw him show up on Jon Stewart one night; hey, I know that guy! - he's not a dupe or a stooge. It's not a monolithic situation.)
The irony is that the "evil sciences" they seem to have in mind often have more in common with their own woo (there's your fave, for instance, Fifi, The Men Who Stare at Goats), in terms of its subpar standards, than with the bulk of real scientific work. Which explains their all too frequent refrain that, oh, science is just another religion. They're not thinking of the actual thing, really. -
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This is the maximum depth. Additional responses will not be threaded.
Re: Newsweek SPANKS Oprah!
Wed, June 10, 2009 - 8:07 AMWell I think the thing is that I recognize the confidence trick (or effect - see link) no matter who's aggressively pushing their perspective/agenda...and I recognize it as an unavoidable aspect of being human. There are people in academic medicine who are just as guilty of being arrogant and showing confirmation bias as any woo peddling conman (and whose main real drama is over the loss of excessive power medical specialists used to have). I've noticed that some advocates of science-based medicine (certainly not all or even the majority but some high profile ones) are really just as bad as their foes - in that it's all about ideology and power (with the ideology being supportive of their power) and an inability to recognize their own confirmation biases and prejudices. I'm okay with people being human, it's the claims to be superhuman that turn me off.
www.newscientist.com/article...ise.html -
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Re: Newsweek SPANKS Oprah!
Wed, June 10, 2009 - 8:39 AMYeah, the problems are with some scientists, for the same reasons found in most human endeavours: power, prestige, etc., not with science itself.
At least, in the long run, and in general, science has self-corrective mechanisms for these distorting factors. Not perfect, but at least the mechanisms exist - peer review, verification, falsifiability of theories (if Popper is right), observing whether theories produce progressive or deteriorating research programmes (Lakatos), etc. While it's true that sometimes scientists with bias are so obstinate, whether from sincere belief or venal self-interest, that no amount of evidence to the contrary or appeals to methodological integrity can change their minds, so that one simply has to wait for them to die and so get out of the way (one of Kuhn's points), at least time *does* help solve even that. In the short term, bogosity gets its chance ("Spock, is your tricorder also getting strong bogon readings from that HRT advocate?" ;-), but in the long term, science calls bullshit on it all. -
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Re: Newsweek SPANKS Oprah!
Wed, June 10, 2009 - 10:05 AMwell, it's why we put trust in science, not scientists. -
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Re: Newsweek SPANKS Oprah!
Wed, June 10, 2009 - 10:30 AMjeremy - Ah, but it's scientists who do the science... Don't get me wrong, I'm generally a big fan of the practice of science and consider it an important and extremely good way to understand ourselves and the world (though not the only one), I'm just increasingly skeptical about both extremes of the science vs pseudoscience culture wars in the US. In fact, I find it highly problematic that it's a culture war for so many involved and this has given rise to increasing skepticism about some players in this whole issue.
Now, part of this may be because I come from a medical family so grew up around medical science and got to see first hand some of the biases in science that are based in societal prejudices (and that still linger, quite strongly amongst some proponents). Medical science is somewhat better than it used to be but it's still full of institutionalized prejudices that are only now starting to fade as the old white men die off. Sadly, some high profile advocates of science-based medicine are really just advocates for the "good old days" and their own importance.
As a woman, I don't "put my trust in science" and I actually think that's a rather dangerous thing to do for anyone (and is actually why it's so easy to peddle pseudoscience to so many well educated people). Science is a tool for understanding ourselves and the world, it can provide information and understanding but, particularly since it's a result of human effort, should always be questioned and scrutinized since it's as fallible as humans are. To me, saying "I trust science" would be no different than saying "I trust art" - trust kind of seems beside the point! -
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Re: Newsweek SPANKS Oprah!
Wed, June 10, 2009 - 11:47 AMas long as we're splitting hairs... I can't argue against the fact that scientists are humans, and humans have prejudices, therefore scientists have prejudices. When I make statements like we trust science and not scientists, I am simply stating that scientists have prejudices and can and will manipulate science data to fit an agenda. There is a certain understanding, I believe, among most skeptics that even science isn't above reproach because of the human element involved. (and even as the Buddha said, go find out for yourself!)
"since it's as fallible as humans are"
it is a tool and it is information, but science as information isn't fallible as humans are, it's the presentation and interpretation. Saying we trust in science and not scientists seems clear to me that we need to always be looking through the lens of skepticism about the presenter and our own interpretation. Maybe we can't have a 100%, but that doesn' t mean we shouldn't strive for that level of accuracy. -
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Re: Newsweek SPANKS Oprah!
Wed, June 10, 2009 - 11:58 AMjeremy - I just don't see "science" as existing as something apart from people - that's getting ideological to me. But this is particularly about medical science for me since that's what I grew up around and what interests me. Anyway, my main point is that going after Oprah (and with such glee) seems about something other than science and scientific integrity to me. -
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Re: Newsweek SPANKS Oprah!
Wed, June 10, 2009 - 12:03 PMit seems necessary to me. -
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Re: Newsweek SPANKS Oprah!
Wed, June 10, 2009 - 12:49 PMit seems like a bit of a witch hunt to me. Or a bit like Newsweek hiding the warts on their own nose, pointing to an easy target and yelling "burn the witch". Seriously, going after a talk show host but not even bothering to talk about how the "serious" media - from the NYT to the WSJ and including Newsweek - have done exactly the same thing is really the pot calling the kettle black (and a way to divert attention from the real issue). Also, it's hardly Oprah's core audience of stay at home mothers who indulge in CAM woo - even if she promotes it - since it's generally people with higher educations (men included) and higher incomes who buy into CAM woo.
Combined with the historical racism and sexism of science and academic medicine, which is still prevalent amongst the old white men who DO mistake science with their political/social ideologies, it's really suspect (not to mention stupid) on a number of levels. -
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still
Wed, June 10, 2009 - 1:37 PMit seems necessary to me. Do we really expect one magic bullet for every side of a single issue? Are the authors' points rendered moot by the fact their publication is run by the old whitey brigade?
so then the argument becomes, until we live in a perfect world Oprah remains with her sacred cows?
What exactly are you arguing for at this point? It's clear what you're arguing against. Or are you just being a contrarian? :) (it takes one to know one?) -
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Re: still
Thu, June 11, 2009 - 5:44 AMI'm not sure what you mean about expecting "one magic bullet for every side of a single issue?" Could you please explain....
Clearly this Newsweek article will appeal to you and others who hate Oprah and who are already convinced, it will do nothing to convince women who like Oprah and who are open to woo - in fact, it may do just the opposite. Hey, I'm a woman who doesn't buy into woo (medical or CAM in source) and I find going after Oprah for HRT lame (as lame as her having Suzanne Somers on to promote quackery and not really that much unlike her blame laying to deflect responsibility). A great deal of the article deals with "bio-identical" HRT and the medicalizing of menopause but, conveniently, forgets that it is the mainstream medical establishment who were the ones who initially contextualized menopause as a disease that needed to be fixed with HRT. Then, as is so often the case when it comes to women, disease and medicine, the (generally unnecessary) mainstream medical treatment ended up being dangerous. So, it was mainstream medicine selling women the idea that HRT was necessary - this is never addressed in the article properly and all the responsibility is shifted to the shoulders of Oprah and Suzanne Somers. The reality is that mainstream medicine created this NOT CAM, CAM just took what was there and ran with it (as is often the case).
No, I'm not just being a contrarian. I'm apply skepticism equally and am aware of the actual history of women's health and medical science. You seem unaware of the politics and history of medicine in general, to be unaware of the true roots of the idea that menopause is a disease, and to not understand the medical establishments long history of pathologizing being a woman (that is not completely gone yet and there are many, many women living who've had unnecessary surgeries and treatments that diminished their quality of life...this is stuff that happened within living memory and not some far far away time in the history of medicine). You also seem to be attributing the medical establishment the kind of trust that you give to "science" (which is an abstract ideal more than a reality).
The particular issue of HRT and women's health is a very inflammatory area for the reasons noted above and also because the mainstream medical establishment has a long and very sordid history of doing horrible things to women and pathologising our natural cycles and normal biology. Mainstream medicine has shown itself NOT to be trustworthy when it comes to women's (and aboriginal and Black people's) health over and over again. Now, some of that has changed now that there are more women in medicine but, as the HRT case shows, not really that much. Combine the fact that academic and mainstream medical research in the US is largely as compromised by the for-profit medical system and philosophy as medical practice in the US is and there are good reasons for women not to just trust mainstream medicine.
I get that you like the article because it affirms your beliefs and makes it into a black and white issue with someone to hate and blame (kinda like how CAM does that with medicine). I'm not saying the article shouldn't call Oprah to task, what I'm saying is that scapegoating her and ignoring mainstream medicine's role is bullshit and the grandstanding by the magazine is to pump up readership rather than honestly and openly dealing with the real causes and results. You may want to apply a bit more skepticism to the mainstream media and mainstream medicine - after all, one sided skepticism is not much more than protecting one's beliefs and projecting all wrong onto the other. -
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Re: still
Thu, June 11, 2009 - 7:35 AMIt's worth noting that science and scientists are usually blind to scientific (really cultural) biases they may hold and has a long history of merely reflecting dominant social values (even when the evidence contradicts these beliefs). Homosexuality was considered an illness by the WHO until 1991 and by professionals in the US until the early 70s (though the stigma of homosexuality being a disease remained within medical circles and resurfaced again when AIDS appeared in the 80s). What changed this was social activism and larger cultural changes *and* how science and medicine was slowly changing due to more women and "others" involved.
I've found that many contemporary advocates of science-based medicine like to pretend that history doesn't matter or that these things aren't relevant now because science finally caught up (or even more arrogantly and incorrectly, they posit that science "led the way" when it did no such thing - the reality is that medical science still pathologizes women's natural cycles and treats women as "hysterical" or "being emotional" (emotions being "bad" in the old white male WASP lexicon of acceptable ways of being, "foreigners" are also suspect or "neurotic" if they express emotion). It's not surprising that many women turn to CAM really, it's more surprising that so many women still trust medical science and don't practice more skepticism.
Now, what happens when medical science demonizes someone like Oprah without taking responsibility for their own part is that it's obvious that the story isn't about getting to the bottom of who's taking advantage of women in this situation at all, it's just blaming Oprah for something medical science started. It certainly doesn't teach women to think skeptically, what it does is put them in a position where they're asked to choose between competing ideologies...one that has a long history of being hostile and demeaning to women and one that is equally dangerous but which combines some constructive elements. So, like Oprah in general, the Newsweek article leaves me with mixed feelings because it's simply taking a side (and ignoring any wrongdoing by that side) rather than presenting all the facts and allowing readers to decide for themselves.
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Re: still
Thu, June 11, 2009 - 9:03 AM"I get that you like the article because it affirms your beliefs and makes it into a black and white issue with someone to hate and blame (kinda like how CAM does that with medicine). I'm not saying the article shouldn't call Oprah to task, what I'm saying is that scapegoating her and ignoring mainstream medicine's role is bullshit and the grandstanding by the magazine is to pump up readership rather than honestly and openly dealing with the real causes and results. You may want to apply a bit more skepticism to the mainstream media and mainstream medicine - after all, one sided skepticism is not much more than protecting one's beliefs and projecting all wrong onto the other."
jeebus, you can be so arrogant. Thanks for boiling me down to a true believer...
One article makes the entire argument against Oprah's predilection to promote CAM into scapegoating the old white men medical industry? Do you hear how ridiculous that sounds?
The issues you raise are valid and important and I completely agree with you, however you're railing against a position I'm not even taking, it's just making you sound like you have a giant chip on your shoulder, that and the fact you're given to arguing verbosely with people who don't take your stance. You know, I actually agree with you, I just don't think we should expect one article to tackle every historical aspect of womens' mistreatment by medical science. I am fine to have a single article, whether you perceive the publication to be hypocritical or not, take on the fact that Oprah gives an open and one sided forum to pseudo-science practitioners. Whatever you're seeing in it is valid and worthy of discussion, but I disagree that I hate and blame Oprah for EVERY aspect of the issue at hand. jeez, get a grip.
SHOULD they have talked about HRT was concocted by a bunch of old white dudes out to victimize women? Maybe. Would it have fit the focus of a single article? Probably not. Perspective is important.
I'm sorry for what the medical establishment has done to you, but that is a separate topic from whether or not Oprah needs to be taken to task. (Yes, I get you think it's hypocritical for Newsweek to even talk about how bad Oprah is, you don't need to reiterate that point again)
Sorry if my response is harsh, you kinda pissed me off this morning. ;) -
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Re: still
Thu, June 11, 2009 - 11:04 AMSorry for getting personal but I find it just as annoying when there's uncritical approval of something that also deserves some skepticism. I don't see the CAM vs medical science issue to be as simplistic as either side who's invested in a "side" proposes it is (and I apologize if I misplaced my frustration onto you). I don't expect much from CAM proponents but I do expect better from those waving the flag of scientific authority. I don't necessarily think you hate and blame Oprah for the whole shebang but you seemed very resistant to critiquing the article and I've just seen a lot of scapegoating going on and think it's a relevant thing to bring up vis a vis this article and the whole debate since it's not a particularly good strategy, lacks integrity and once again isn't actually being honest about the whole picture. Sorry for harshing your buzz! -
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Re: still
Thu, June 11, 2009 - 11:45 AMYour points are well taken and very good; you're obviously very knowledgeable and passionate about this issue, you should write your response to this article and the whole scenario behind it. Blog it or submit it to another publication.
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